Are 19er submitters Quranists?


A discussion about the term Quranists and how the term is used – thread on QRAC

Important clarification


Just to clear up any misunderstandings! In a previous thread, the name RK was mentioned, and other terms associated with this person. RK is short for Rashad Khalifa, who claimed to be a Messenger of God and claimed that 2 verses should be removed from the Quran.

Followers of this person’s teachings are sometimes referred to (somewhat derog.) as Khalifites. The ones who do follow his teachings and believe him to be a Messenger of God sometimes call themselves “Submitters”. There is a group called Submitters International. Just to make it very clear – This group QRAC and the other facebook groups within the  Quranists Network are NOT affiliated with RK’s teachings.

In my experience, the ones who follow RK’s teachings call themselves “Submitters” and reject 2 verses of the Quran and believe in a mathematical code based on the number 19. To be fair, some people who do not call themselves “Submitters” or anything other than “simply Muslim” or “just Muslim” may use the same terminology, phrases and attitude as seen on the “submission” site, but still accept the whole Quran without rejecting 2 verses. Some even believe in the 19 code without rejecting 2 verses. Some people have never heard of RK but pick up the fundamentalist attitude from other sites/groups. Not to forget there are also people who call themselves “Submitters” but who do not follow RK’s teachings – they only follow the Quran (or an interpretation of the Quran).

Before the use of the term “Quranism” anyone googling for “Quran Alone” “God Alone” or “Quran Only” type articles may have stumbled across submission.org or masjidtuscon which promotes RK’s teachings, which is where I personally believe the Fundamentalist Mentality is most at risk of setting in, especially if people rely on that 1 translation by RK which has numerous inconsistencies/errors.

Each person is unique and has the right to find out what the Quran’s Guidance is and whether they choose RK’s teachings (or anyone else’s!) over what the Quran actually conveys  in context and with a coherent understanding. Alhamdulillah, many students of the Quran have the opportunity to use the study tools available online, which means that we have access to study the Quran and the Arabic words used instead of relying on translations, inshaaAllah, even if we don’t speak/read Arabic to start with. SubhanAllah! Now THAT is amazing! 🙂  That is just my own humble opinion.

Usually the ones labelled as RK followers are not actually followers of RK especially once they find out he taught the rejection of 2 verses of the Quran. Remember everyone starts somewhere and each person’s “journey” is different and filled with their own tests.  I actually found a lot of direct references to the Quranic verses on submission.org shortly after I converted to Traditional Islam! And I must say I am glad I found those verse references because I looked them up for myself and  came to realise how awesome the Quran is from investigating what I saw. This was a crucial point for me after I converted because I was hearing about all these terms like “hadith” and “sunnah” and “weak” and “strong” and “wajib” and “makrooh” and “fardh” and all the other confusing cultural/traditonal practises that converts are taught as a matter of course.  I had to learn how to look up verses for myself! No one taught me that!  <— we are talking major newbie here!!

Many a night did I spend with highlighter sticky tabs and cross referencing verses to examine the notion that the Quran has the sole authority. It was part of a very beautiful journey for me! I’m grateful for all my stepping stones, alhamdulillah wa shukr!! And I am still learning, we all are – that is humbling in itself. 🙂  So let’s try to keep an open mind, keep learning, keep reading Quran, comparing translations for incompatibilities/inconsistencies/errors,  studying, investigating, praying for guidance, mercy, forgiveness, patience and strength and doing good deeds and helping each other to make progress and being awesome to each other! InshaaAllah! 🙂

Asfora

PS: Just in case I didn’t make it clear. I do not consider myself a follower of RK. I am a Quranist.

Further reading :

https://quranistvoices.wordpress.com/2011/05/27/a-collection-of-quranist-voices/

http://www.quranists.net/2011/04/16/submitters-and-quranists/http://www.quranists.net/2011/05/16/quran-alone-ism-and-quranism/

http://www.quranists.net/2011/04/13/an-analysis-of-quranic-fundamentalism/

http://www.quranists.net/2011/05/21/the-muslim-label-%E2%80%93-having-your-cake-and-eating-it-too/

Did RK say to beat wives or did he disobey Allah?


Lets have a look at RK’s footnote for 4/34:

Do Not Beat Your Wife*
[4:34] The men are made responsible for the women,** and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD’s commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.

*4:34 God prohibits wife-beating by using the best psychological approach. For example, if I don’t want you to shop at Market X, I will ask you to shop at Market Y, then at Market Z, then, as a last resort, at Market X. This will effectively stop you from shopping at Market X, without insulting you. Similarly, God provides alternatives to wife-beating; reasoning with her first, then employing certain negative incentives. Remember that the theme of this sura is defending the women’s rights and countering the prevalent oppression of women. Any interpretation of the verses of this sura must be in favor of the women. This sura’s theme is “protection of women.”
**4:34 This expression simply means that God is appointing the husband as “captain of the ship.” Marriage is like a ship, and the captain runs it after due consultation with his officers. A believing wife readily accepts God’s appointment, without mutiny..

My comment: RK the messenger needs to make up his mind. Allah did say ‘adriboo’ (which he trannslates to mean beat). RK was in no position to say God really meant to say ‘dont beat’. The messenger’s job is to convey but in this case, he chose to speculate. Oh and messenger, the word ‘husband’ isnt even there…..

19ers use of 10/20 and 25/5-6


We had more of 19er postings on Quranology, unfortunately.  This time, about the so-called ‘7 pairs’ which they allude to being the muqataat (the mystical letters). Why on earth would God call them 7 pairs is of course, never explained. Why noy 14 sets? Anyhow….

An interesting new development (at least to me) is the use of 10/20 and 25/5-6. Here’s what they say about it:

The Quran states in 10:20 and 25:4-6 that its miracle, i.e., proof of divine authorship, was destined to remain secret for a specific predetermined interim.

This is of course, patent nonsense. The Quran says nothing of the sort. My answer is as follows:

Your interpretation of 10/20 and 25/5-6 is highly suspect.

10/20: And they say, “Why is a sign not sent down to him from his Lord?” So say, “The unseen is only for Allah [to administer], so wait; indeed, I am with you among those who wait.”

This aya is for the Prophet and the Prophet was told to say ‘wait, i am waiting with you’. It has nothing to do with some secret miracle.

25/6: Say, , “It has been revealed by He who knows secrets within the heavens and the earth. Indeed, He is ever Forgiving and Merciful.”

It says ALLAH knows the secrets. It doesnt say Quran contains secrets.

You guys need to stop manipulating the text to support your code

Ifti asks the 19ers some tough questions…


With ’19 fever’ going on in Quranology Discussions, Ifti came up with some hard to answer questions:

 Have a question to all 19ers whoever can answer, i asked for it a lot of times but yet not answered,
1. Why check for 19 in only Quran?
2. Why cannot we add 19 complied verses in the Quran? when removal is possible i guess addition too.
3. Before 1000 years ( a rough number) wasnt there any other person who invented 19 code? If this is …the only way to verify the Quran God let others wander?
4. If 19 is the only method to check the Quran and being so effective why God does not mention in the Quran that there is this 19 thing to check?
5. What is the possibility of not having any verse added in the past by any intelligent person who was aware of 19 before RK but was not a believer?
6. RK being an amazing person to have found the code 19 the only method in how Quran was preserved why his name is not in the Quran? like Muhammad, Abraham etc.
( If RK is the first person to discover 19 then its a new revelation not the same message other messengers are delivering).
Note: please post your answers by mentioning the Question no.
Thank you

Submitters and Quranists articles


A collection of articles

http://www.quranists.net/2011/04/16/submitters-and-quranists/
https://quranistvoices.wordpress.com/2011/05/31/quranists-and-submitters-the-difference/
https://quranistvoices.wordpress.com/2011/05/27/a-collection-of-quranist-voices/

But anyway we should focus on what unites us, not what divides us, inshaaAllah after all we are all muslims alhamdulillah 🙂

Quranists and Submitters – The Difference


Interesting question in Yahoo Answers:

What’s the difference between Submitters and Quranists? Don’t worry I’m not out to bash anyone. In fact my whole family are Quranists.I know about 19 (but not much), but who is this Rashid person who claims to be a messenger? And if he is a messenger, then what is his message?

Please keep an open mind people 🙂

Our very own RevolutionPsyche gave a very comprehensive reply below:
Your entire family are Quranists? I’m jealous!Alright, let’s see. I’m on facebook and on many Quran Alone and Submitter groups, so I can show you both types of differences, the on and off record: Technical difference:

Quranists was a term used by the Egyptians and Egyptian Gov’t who were against Ahl Al Quran, a group of Quran Aloners who mainly followed Ahmad Subhi Mansour, who denied hadith and got into jail for this. If you speak Arabic and/or don’t mind weird English, check out their site: http://ahl-alquran.com/arabic/main.php. It got great Quranist articles. 🙂

This is where the term originated in Arabic countries, usually pronounced quraniyoon/quranyeen or ahl al quran.

Of course, this does not mean it’s theirs exclusively, and their original name is Ahl Al Quran. A Quranist is anyone who considers the Quran to be the only source of law. Some Quranists may be submitters (although I PERSONALLY do not consider them to be Quranists), and some others may believe in Sunnah but not hadith (which I do not consider Quranists either, for personal reasons).

There are many other outside sources beside hadith that people should utterly deny and leave behind, and so I don’t think the term “Quranist” can be canned up as a “Denier of Hadith”.

The thing is that Submitters believe in “miracle 19” as a part of the Quran, which is their honest opinion and they are entitled to it, and thus could be Quranists. Rashad Khalifa was believed to be another Messenger from God. You can find more about him and his ideology on http://submission.org/. This site doesn’t contain any criticism to the code19 theory. 🙂

Many Quranists even deny the term and consider it a way of division and prefer “Muslim”.

More links for you: my friend launched a Quranist website and a Quranist blog and blog directory (where you can add yours too): http://www.quranists.net/, quranistvoices.wordpress.com/.

The first one contains many great articles on the ideology, study approach and movement of Quranism.

The latter is probably your place for “daily” Quranic news and musings a number of writers (including myself) share online for everyone to benefit.

Differences I noticed:

Okay, not the off-the-record stuff. I’m not friends with many believers in code 19 at will. Many of them have abused me in the name of their code as I am not convinced with it although many others are nice. They prefer to be called “Submitters” as a part of Rashad’s “authorized English translation of the Quran”. I also noticed that Rashad Khalifa provided many many quick-business answers for them regarding the Quran and Quranic verses. His English translation kind of “seals the deal” on Quranic interpretation, and that is why I see they are in no need to be “Quranists”. Most Quranists I know spend many hours daily analyzing and studying the Quran, while I see them posting 19-related articles all over a chosen group. It’s spammy, and then they tell me I am a bad person for getting annoyed to see “God’s word” posted everywhere when it’s actually “Rashad Khalifa’s thoughts on God’s word”.

As far as I know, there are more foreign Submitters than Arabic ones (I’m Arabic and I noticed many were drawn more toward Shahrour’s and Ahmad Subhi Mansour’s views on hadith, thus didn’t get to see much of Rashad). It’s actually quite rare to find an Arabic Submitter although I know quite many.

Long ago, we had a group on facebook called “Hadith of the Day!” which was mainly 19-orientated. Most admins were advertising Rashad Khalifa’s ideas, which drew many people into discovering new ways to serve God without the need of Hadith. Maybe Rashad should get credit for spreading the message of free-thinking… to some degree.

And his message is mainly explained on submission.org although I highly recommend you don’t rely on it, since the code he brought to surface (code 19) cannot function properly unless two verses of the Quran are removed (which is a big no-no to me and many others), and I never fail to find “errors” in his work.

Finally:

To me, a Quranist is a free thinker (since imho, the Quran encourages free thinking) who studies the Quran and honestly attempts to apply it.

If you have a facebook, feel free to swing by our group: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/home.php?sk=group_179495912090888&ap=1